Geert Vanden Bossche On Natural Immunity's Destruction by COVID Viral Overexposure and Vaccination, a highlighted transcript of an interview in which he details the mechanisms by which immunity is gained and lost

 SARS-cov2 came to our countries and initially the vast majority of all healthy people were simply protected although they were so to say immunologically naive so how can that be so? This is just explained by innate immunity which is a factor an element that has been completely completely neglected ignored whatsoever in this pandemic and which is now leading to enormous confusion.  You have children that can be infected right now children non-vaccinated children are even an important source of infection there's no doubt about this and so you have a vaccine that can obviously according to data i've seen essentially data published by public health england that vaccination can reduce the infectivity rate in in children so on top some children get the disease really and if you can prevent the disease protect people from the disease elderly people and also  adults etc why wouldn't you vaccinate  the children and even young children so that is the is the main question is that people are saying that the children are a source of infection for the elderly and putting them at risk plus the children can have risk as well of getting an infection and so therefore it seems almost counterintuitive of course you should want to vaccinate them yeah so again i mean there is so many questions that we can ask and where we don't have the answers  i mean this has been my major field or my major focus is not to leave any stone unturned and try to understand what's going on because and i i'll give you a simple example we know we know that this vaccine cannot prevent infection cannot protect against infection and then when you look for example at the data public health england you see that there is a tremendous impact i'm saying tremendous impact of vaccinating children on the infectivity rate come on how can that be see there is plenty of things that cannot be explained by just taking into account the acquired immunity and what we know about what the vaccines do inducing neutralizing antibodies and we know they don't protect against infection and that was also the reason why now the criteria have already been changed or the benchmark it's no longer you know herd immunity preventing transmission it's no longer even protecting just against disease it's not protecting against severe disease and guess what you vaccinate children you have a tremendous impact on infectivity so that already tells me something is wrong so something else is that of course children at the beginning of the pandemic for a year or even longer especially children they were completely unaffected most of them were not even shedding the virus let alone getting getting the the illness so while all of a sudden now children are getting infected and and and get ill so what has changed i can tell you what has changed the major change is that we have by by doing the mass vaccination we have been fostering we have been promoting the propagation of more infectious variants so that is to say of course the infectious variants existed already the more infectious but it's very clear that since we have been doing the mass vaccination since we implemented mass vaccination campaigns in  you know a substantial um to a substantial extent that the propagation of more infectious variants  has been promoted and has been accelerated so this already tells me well maybe we should see whether there is a link somewhere between the higher rate of infectiousness so i always call this the infectious pressure in the population and abnormalities that we are observing right now so that all of a sudden in combination with the vaccine you can tremendously reduce infectivity rate in in in children because if you just look at the infectivity rate you say okay if the vaccine has an effect we need to vaccinate them nobody thinks on about the long-term effect of this and nobody really knows what this is going to cause in children in terms of i would say immune mediated effects so we are intervening in the immune system do we simply think that the immune system in those young people in those children will react in exactly the same way as in adults or older people we know that if you vaccinate somebody where is a young individual or an older individual or an adult you will always get acquired antibodies you will get these vaccinal antibodies no problem that is of course always exceptions people who react as well to the vaccine so in terms of the vaccinal antibodies we have a kind of homologous  population when we vaccinate but what in terms of innate immunity obviously when it's not a homologous population because yeah so when you't say innate immunity gert are you saying i'm just trying to help the if they listen to understand this you are saying the natural baseline immune system producing antibodies and using natural killer cells to fight any kind of infection it's almost as like a broad army it that's what you mean when you say indian community and it's it's very logical  philip i mean we talk about the virus right and we want to kill this virus it's we want to eliminate this virus we want to neutralize this virus that is that is the purpose right so then what we need to think about in terms of immunology is what i call effectors immune effectors immune effectors are for example antibodies and 1) antibodies can potentially neutralize the virus, and 2) affect our T-cells that can for example kill virus infected cells we have both compartments represented in the acquired immunity branch so to say which we know very well that is the one we vaccinologists know very very well the antibodies and the T-cells for example but people forget that within the compartment of the innate immunity you also have this humeral effectors so the antibodies namely the innate antibodies and you also have innate cells that can kill virus infected cells which are for example the natural killer cells so these are the guys that we like to talk to when we want to kill a virus or when we want to diminish the infection etc we need effectors that can either neutralize free circulating virus or that can kill cells that harbor a virus that obviously has entered into the into the cells and we have both compartments the humeral antibody and the cellular [and both can be both specific and innate]  as well for the innate immunity as for the acquired immunity so this is already to say that have you heard during this whole you know pandemic a lot about natural killer cells have you heard a lot about innate immunity etc innate antibodies and i'm just saying this is you know an incredibly important this is our first line of defense when we talk about innate immunity people come with cytokines and all this kind of stuff i call this innate messengers they are messengers a cytokine is not capable in its own right of neutralizing a virus or killing a virus infected cell right this is all we know vaccinologists about innate immunity because we know that these cytokines etc act as a kind of adjuvant and that we need this adjuvantation to really have a full fledge to induce a full-fledged acquired immune response but the most important elements and cornerstones of the innate immunity are the innate antibodies and the natural killer cells and by the way these are the effectors that have saved you know almost all people at least all people who were in good health when the pandemic came in it was yeah because people were immunologically naive and we know that those the people who were vulnerable were those who with a weakened innate immune system we know that underlying diseases for the older you you get unfortunately the higher the likelihood that you have to deal with underlying diseases and with with the number of you know comorbidities etc so these were the people and there is a relationship it's all it's all published relationship between your health status and the quality of your innate immunity so even you you get older and you get underlying diseases etc etc your health deteriorates so does your innate immune system these are typically the people who were vulnerable so why didn't we already learn from the very beginning from the very beginning where we didn't see this in healthy people that innate immunity was really the key the key factor that was you know controlling the pandemic at the very beginning so are we too short term in our approach to this pandemic is it that i'm trying to understand why therefore we're seeing some of the responses that we've seen across the world is it that we're trying too hard to just stop the pandemic and we're not taking the time to think and to plan and to look at the longer term consequences of our actions well personally and i think i have said this before um in the mind of vaccinologists and people who are interested in using vaccines for public health in our mind it's like okay we use a vaccine to control an infection and we have been doing this very very successfully and we haven't been caring that much about being in a pandemic or or not we haven't been caring that much about vaccinating you know like whole populations entire population across all ages this is something we have in fact not done before and we have not taken those factors into account so that means that we have been using vaccines now during a pandemic just the way we would use them outside of a pandemic where you would vaccinate people make sure they have nice titers of antibodies and then they are protected of course  against against disease which is fine we thought that the fact that we do this during a pandemic and that we massively vaccinate people not just like normally with a vaccine you have the childhood vaccines you have the adult vaccines you have the adolescent vaccines this is each time a target group one target group that you vaccinate there's none of these vaccines is used in fact for mass vaccination we thought this was all not important a vaccine is a vaccine and the effect of the vaccine when it induces antibodies is well it will at least protect against the disease and that will stay so that will remain so not taking into account that the dynamic of the pandemic leads to changes in the virus more infectious variants that become more dominant and that it leads also to changes in the immune pressure that the population exerts these situations are very very different from the immune response in a certain cohort during clinical trial for example and where you have of course you're not necessarily in in a pandemic so we have simply been extrapolating to a situation which is however so different and not been taking into account the evolutionary dynamics and  the versatility of the immune response and and also the evolutionary capacity of the virus i'm going to bring up an image here that you shared with me and i want you to try and as simply as you can explain what this is about um this is where we're looking at children and you are concerned about the innate immune response in comparison to the spite protein response of those children in a normal infection so this is an unvaccinated child is that about right yeah and this is always the case actually before we come to a complex situation of vaccinating a child and why am i saying is this a complex situation because the child obviously has very good and very strong innate immunity and now all of a sudden we we will  also provide it with  acquired immunity so that is a complex situation before we do this we we we need to start out with things that are as simple as possible so right at the beginning we'll start out with a situation where we are dealing with in fact not necessarily a child but it could be a child  but anyway a person who is not vaccinated  but who is in a pandemic right so it's it's a case of the non-vaccinated being exposed to a pandemic we first need to understand what is happening before we can then move on and see what happens to a person who is in an identical situation but who gets vaccinated right yeah so this  scheme was just meant to illustrate that  innate immunity  has a so to say a threshold where it can protect so i told already that people who have weak health underlying diseases comorbidities that their innate immune response is weakened and that therefore they will not be able to contain the virus so but if they do for example at the beginning of the pandemic the children already healthy person they are capable of eliminating the virus and that is due most likely there is a number of papers that very strongly suggest that this is the case through innate antibodies and the innate antibodies as i said they can neutralize the virus and that has been very well described but if they don't neutralize the virus they can still facilitate the entry into cells that can present it to to the “natural killer” cells this is this is i'm not going to go into the detail but the way the natural antibodies facilitate the presentation to “natural killer” cells is of course different from a situation where acquired [post-vaccine?] Antibodies facilitate virus entry into antigen presenting cells to then be presented to the T-cells for example it is similar but you have different effectors so what i'm saying is that either the innate antibodies they can neutralize right away the virus these are typically for example the children who at the beginning of the pandemic got exposed to the virus weren't even shedding the virus was neutralized right away or you can have people with you know less high titers of innate antibodies the virus which will get in but the “natural killer” cells will kick in very very fast and they will eliminate the virus also these people are still part of what we call the asymptomatically infected people and so they don't really infect symptoms because the virus is eliminated  very fast so that is the threshold when saying where you have steady life in unity[??] So now what is happening is that um if for example you have  anti-spike antibodies not from the vaccine but why would a person why would a person  have anti-spike antibodies whereas this person has not even gotten the disease i was just saying these people have innate antibodies for example following an asymptomatic infection so they didn't get a disease how then can they get to the to these antibodies well this can happen because people who got asymptomatically infected did not neutralize the virus right away but they got-cells infected that were afterwards eliminated by “natural killer” cells they have at least immune system has at least for a short time seen the virus it entered into the cells it was very eliminated very fast so the immune response that you will see is short-lived it's not a fully mature response and it does not induce B memory cells but it doesn't use antibodies against the spike protein and if somebody is having this antibodies they last for about six to eight weeks all this has been documented these antibodies they can compete with the innate antibodies and i've been describing in a number of articles how this competition works in fact they have both affinity for  SARS-cov2 for the viral particles they interact in another way with each other and hence they compete for binding to that particle they compete so now you can imagine, you're a healthy person right?  You got an asymptomatic infection so you are for some time you will be sitting on this short-lived antibodies,  these anti-spike antibodies, and if these antibodies can now suppress your innate antibodies (the innate antibodies are not destroyed it's just like they are bypassed because the anti-spike antibodies they bind strongly enough to the SARS-cov2 particle that the innate antibodies have  barely a chance to bind--they are not necessarily completely outcompeted; they can bind to some extent but they don't fully bind to it) so if that if if now you imagine that these [anti-spike?] Antibodies nor which normally last for six to eight weeks that this person who is sitting on these antibodies get continuously in contact with with the virus which is the case right now with young people for example you know people are having contact this virus is so highly infectious this delta variant that the likelihood that people get in contact with the virus over and over again becomes very high so in other words your short-lived spike antibodies have no chance or have barely any chance to decline and they can they can to some extent [out]compete with your innate antibodies and what happens and what what is this doing therefore  philip your  if you if you like  please show the slide again yeah so what is happening that's what i put at the  at the bottom of this slide so obviously when  and this is the situation number one  i put the one say to the arrow where the level of protection that is afforded or that is provided sorry that is provided by your innate antibodies has come down to the level of np1 it has come down so it is in other words no longer inducing sterilizing immunity because it is underneath the threshold but it can still bind to the virus and what does this do well this has an important  effect in a sense that this will enable training of your innate immunity so in fact the innate antibodies that have a very broad spectrum that can cover all kinds of different SARS-cov2 variants and even corona viruses so they have this broad spectrum they were all of a sudden was their affinity no longer strong enough to bind to the virus in a way that it could completely eliminated it as i was saying you're underneath the threshold no longer sterilizing immunity so that is it it seems it is like the viru the the innate immune system would try to improve in fact the strength of binding of these innate antibodies to still remain polyreactive to still remain very very broad and that is the training that is the training that means that when the innate immune response has been to some extent suppressed by the anti-spike antibodies it will react in a way because it has recognized the antigen of course the innate antibodies have seen the virus it will react in a way that it improves its binding to this SARS-cov2 particle and the way this occurs is by stimulation by activation i should say by activation of pre-existing so they exist as you know from birth from pre-existing B memory cells that secrete igm antibodies*s polyreactive antibodies so in this way in fact you have two things first of all the innate immune system does a kind of upgrade because it has now it will now produce antibodies that are recognized with somewhat a higher affinity the SARS-cov2 and that is an interesting situation because the igm antibodies*s that are secreted by the plasma cells that are generated by this igm antibodies* secreting B memory cells they are still polyreactive they are still capable which is important for a young child at the beginning of its life to still recognize a diversified spectrum of different pathogens so this is a marvelous thing this is a marvelous thing that the immune system does it learns to train its immune cells its innate immune cells so that it can now better cope with this invading pathogen without compromising its broad spectrum that it will still maintain to also fight other pathogens by exactly the same way of innate immunity so let me understand then so what you're saying is that even in children because say the delta variant is so much more infectious they are being continuously exposed to the virus they are getting continual spikes of their s protein and this is suppressing their innate immune system so that seems to be pushing the narrative even further that these children should therefore benefit from vaccination that's what i would get from that it is that a correct interpretation well no it is not but  we we cannot since these things are unfortunately relatively complex we can really not afford to skip  to to skip some steps so to to your point first to your first point philip when these children their innate immunity is suppressed okay so but to the extent that is not completely outcompeted the innate antibodies will still recognize the virus and will get trained and this is a memory draining can you imagine the value of this this is something that is still polyreactive [but nevertheless] has memory right so but you could say and this is of course true that if the innate immunity now gets suppressed too much, if the innate antibodies can no longer even bind to the virus because the anti-spike protein antibodies bind so strongly that the innate antibodies are completely out competed, then of course the virus breaks, in fact, through the innate immunity and the child will get ill. Will will get a disease but this is also another misunderstanding i would say by all of us first of all the likelihood that that happens will depend on the status of the innate immune status of the child for example pandemic flu pandemic 1918 young soldiers 16 years old 70 years old etc were fighting in the trenches you know you can imagine the situation the conditions very bad innate immunity the the virus had no problem to immediately break through that innate immunity and to make this the soldiers these young people ill right if we look right now the children that get the disease and certainly you know severe disease are rather rare our children right now are in much better health much better nutrition all you know i mean especially in our western countries of course they have you know very good health status in general so it's much more difficult for the virus to break through that health status so that is one lesson first of all can your child if it is not vaccinated can it get ill of course it can what is the likelihood that [children] will get severe disease is very very very low and we should really make a difference between severe disease and and disease it's not abnormal to get ill because remember if these children then recover they get a disease they may maybe be in bed for a few days i don't know not necessarily but they will then develop lifelong immunity acquired immunity that is very very clear and of course if their innate immune status is severely depressed and this could also be due to genetic deficiencies or or underlying diseases then that is of course a different situation then these children will get dealing with could even get  get a severe disease but we have to bear in mind that a normal situation where a child in good health can deal with it and either develops asymptomatic infection and has the benefit of training its innate immune system while still being able to tackle a number of other pathogens that is a very favorable situation i would say almost a worst [BEST?!] Case scenario the child get a disease okay then it will when it recovers acquire also quite broad protective immunity through acquired  acquired antibodies so you have your common situation so you can't be saying therefore to just let the children get covet 19. That would seem as though that's too high a risk isn't it for the children even though they have a small risk some could get seriously ill and some could die why not just protect them with vaccinations well right now you know this is this is paradoxical paradoxically enough children right now have never been better protected against disease than now that is very very strange so how can we explain this and again now i have to come to the point that if this were due to innate immunity so far i've been talking about innate immunity if a child has sufficient innate immunity as innate immunity is sterilizing it will eliminate a virus it will fight infection and because it does that automatically the child must be protected against disease so with sterilizing immunity innate immunity protection against infection goes hand in hand with protection against disease in order to get a disease you first need to get infected so what we see right now is that we see children that are protected against disease look at the public health  the  public health england data the children the class under the age of 18 there is almost no disease so this young children now develop almost no disease however however they are all but [in no way?] Protected against infection; on the contrary, these unvaccinated children are now a major source of infection but this is already should already ring a bell [sound a warning] so what is going on here because these children it cannot be the innate immunity because protecting you know you can only be protected against disease provided you are protected against infection when it comes to innate immunity here the situation is different and why does this why is this the case? So on one hand side you could say well the likelihood and frankly speaking i don't think that the major driver right now to even think of vaccinating children and i'm talking especially in countries like the us like the uk like even belgium is i mean in all countries that have high vaccination rates and where the delta variant is is is really propagating at at very high speed and in in high quantities  in these countries you will see that that the children you know are extremely well protected against the disease so i don't think that the major driver in these countries to get the children vaccinated is to protect them from the disease but it is essentially to prevent them from spreading the virus but that is something that is not understood because didn't we say all the time that the virus does not—adapted [to?]  The vaccine does not protect against infection and that it does not protect against transmission and on the other hand we see now in children a tremendous effect of the vaccine to protect against the infection: the infection rates in the vaccinated children they are incredibly low compared to the infection rates in the non-vaccinated children. So none of this makes sense unless unless you bring in the combination of the innate immunity and the acquired immunity. As i was saying, if the children are continuously in contact with the virus more and more they will mount anti-spike antibodies, short-lived anti-spike antibodies that can completely out-compete the innate immune antibodies. So what would that mean? No protection whatsoever, because innate immunity is outcompeted? No, you will still have protection because now the anti-spike protein the anti-spike antibodies at a high level will bind so strongly to the  SARS-cov2 particles that it is not capable of preventing the infection, but it can prevent the disease in its own right. So the pre the protection that these children are now enjoying against the disease comes--and i'm talking about non-vaccinated children--comes from the short-lived anti-spike antibodies that are now continuously present that have no chance even to decline and that completely outcompete the innate antibodies. So this is something which is a very strange situation a very strange situation and already illustrates that if you would stratify and you would take it per age group well normally with a pandemic you see that the disease rate is following the infection [rate]; etc here it is completely disconnected: these unvaccinated young children are protected better than ever against the disease but they are a very important source of  of infectivity

And so what therefore is the solution, Geert? Because as you can say you've highlighted the the very strange circumstance where yes the vaccine does protect the children you know. And and what what do parents do do they

Well, we need to take it one step further now we are going to vaccinate the children right after all these other steps that we are going to vaccinate the children we have already learned that anti-spike antibodies that strongly bind to the virus can completely out compete innate immunity even in children even in children who are not vaccinated but continuously exposed to the virus the short-lived anti-spike antibodies can bind strongly enough to the virus to out-compete innate immunity and to provide protection against disease so now if you add one layer you add one layer where you are now going to vaccinate these children and induce [vaccinal] antibodies that bind even much stronger than the short-lived [innate] antibodies that children acquire following asymptomatic infection, then for sure you're going to completely out compete the innate antibodies that is that is one thing and um the other thing is that these vaccinal antibodies will now strongly bind to the virus but they will no longer this combination will of course no longer allow training of the innate immune system of the child so the training of the innate immune system of a child is so important because it's going to protect them at an early age to numerous other pathogens and these igm antibodies*s have a broad spectrum if you prevent this training what you are going to do first of all with the children that are not vaccinated but that are continuously exposed to the virus and develop this high titer of short-lived antibodies they their innate immune responses is is suppressed and the virus will continuously  they will continuously encounter the virus so it will still it can still induce training but the training will be very very limited to the  SARS-cov2 antigen because that is the antigen that it is the innate immune system that is in the process of being trained is seeing all the time so that means that even the non-vaccinated children right now because of the high infectious pressure are more and more concentrating even with regard to their trained immunity on the  SARS-cov2 and have not enough leeway to fight other pathogens that they would normally easily deal with at that young age. If you vaccinate the children, you are pushing this one step further because now you are not going to allow any training at all the innate immune system is very strongly and i would say almost durably suppressed by durably every single time that this child is going to encounter the delta variant which is circulating all the time it will get it will get its antibodies boosted it's acquired antibodies boosted and the suppression will be continued so now i'm in a situation where the innate immunity is continuously suppressed while the virus is continuously attacking this child why yeah because we know that the vaccinal antibodies cannot limit or cannot prevent spread and transmission of the virus so it gets continuously continuously confronted with the virus the innate the acquired immunity cannot do anything about this because the antibodies cannot prevent infection the innate immune system cannot be [broadly] trained, because in its you know  immune cells have been outcompeted and then what we get and this is typically what we see

 

In naive children when they get confronted with a pathogen they will secrete naive antibodies

 

So that means we have no trained immunity so the memory cells forget about them [individual pathogens?]; they have not been activated.

 

 But the naive igm antibodies* secreting B cells they will now secrete more and more antibodies and those antibodies they can recognize self-like motifs.

* igm antibodies secreted by B cells participate in both neutralization and clearance of pathogens in addition to initiating inflammatory reactions against pathogens through the complement pathway.

(you have to imagine what is the purpose of these innate antibodies.  An important purpose of the

 

Innate antibodies is to eliminate self-like components that resemble self proteins or self glycans**

** Glycans are chain-like structures that are composed of single sugar molecules (monosaccharides) linked together by chemical bonds. ... The sugar chain structures commonly called glycans are usually found attached to proteins and lipids in living organisms.

 

, to remove them the freezer to remove them because if they get recognized by the normal B and T cells then you get autoimmunity so you have to imagine we are re renewing ourselves all the time etc and and that leads of course to apoptosis--cells die and there is debris, degraded proteins or degraded structures they are no longer identical to self but they are self-like well these antibodies these naive antibodies are capable of recognizing the cell of like structures to eliminate them because if they would become more foreign they could be recognized by T-cells by B cells etc so this is a very very important function so as i was saying in the vaccinated children, no training, the acquired (vaccine-induced) antibodies cannot do anything, but i have frequent and repeated encounter with the pathogen, and so what these naive cells do is that they will simply secrete more self-like antibodies and because the concentrations become very high the self like antibodies can now start to recognize self structures, and very seriously, very seriously, i am convinced, i'm convinced, that immunizing young children for that very reason will lead to a tsunami of autoimmune diseases [AND THEY WILL ALSO BE VULNERABLE TO NON-COVID DISEASES?!?!] And the benefit that they will get from the vaccine is no better than the benefit anybody else will get from the vaccine—namely, when immune escape occurs (and that is already going on), the virus will completely escape from the neutralizing antibodies and whether this is an adult, an elderly [person], or a child, they will not be protected. But on the other hand we have been vaccinated vaccinating children that you know for the time being there is no problem they barely get any disease and if we would simply imagine if we would simply diminish the infectious pressure it would diminish it then we would no longer out-compete innate antibodies at most the anti-spike antibodies could compete with them but not out-compete them and that would stimulate training of their innate immune response and that is what we need so it's as simple as that we cannot we should not under no condition vaccinate any child the what we need to do is to lower the infectious pressure and therefore i'm really calling for a mass administration of an antiviral i'm not going to pronounce any names that you know could be censored or whatever but a chemoprophylaxis an antiviral for six weeks or eight weeks that can diminish the infectious pressure the child can perfectly deal with it i have explained it maybe it can get mild disease but then it develops anyway lifelong acquired immunity or it deals with it in a completely asymptomatic way and trains its immunity--training means that next time around the memory is there to attack  to attack the  SARS-cov2 virus and on top it still preserves its broad spectrum of effectivity against a number of other pathogens which is which is crucial which is critical for a young child of course right because it's not it's still so naive you see these things are complex and simply not factoring in or not bringing into the equation the innate immunity leads to very short-sighted but completely dangerous and harmful decisions of vaccinating young children that can be pro completely and broadly [protected] against all variants against all variants protected thanks to their innate immunity provided provided we don't put it under tremendous [infectious] pressure like the vaccines are doing and like repeated exposure to infectious variants is doing. So let's diminish this infectious pressure and there is no problem we will get back to the situation like at the beginning of the pandemic with low infectious pressure where there was no child (of course we we talked to the children wear masks and  and and you know we we also involved them in the lockdowns etc which was a complete nonsense in order to train your innate immune system you need to get in contact with with the pathogens and normally this is a very nice equilibrium that from time to time will lead to disease very extremely rarely to severe disease and only in children that have really problems and underlying problems but otherwise it leads to mild disease consequence lifelong acquired immunity or asymptomatic affection consequence training of your innate immunity and a broad broadly diversified immune defense that is maintained against other pathogens)

 

But phillip i'm completely aware about you know long-term side effects and you will never hear me saying use an antiviral in a completely prophylactic way or for a long time remember i was talking about this anti-spike antibodies that have that remain that can be detected for about six to eight weeks if you if you tell people to stay at home for like six to eight weeks in an ideal world then these antibodies can decline and in the meantime in the mean so when they decline that means that their capacity their capacity to sterilize the virus when they encounter it it's completely restored remember it's no longer suppressed it's completely restored and during that time you use an antiviral that can suppress the infectious pressure that can diminish the infectious pressure in the population then you can get all these people back you know and socialize and have contact all they will do because they got their sterilizing capacity restored they will further diminish the infectious pressure right and that is exactly what happened when boris johnson in july lifted the  lockdown measures people had you know been staying away from social contacts etc for for a certain time the antibodies declined from those who were not vaccinated their antibodies declined and then they got back into society and they were the guys who brought down the infectious pressure without any antivirals used massively their in their own right brought down the infectious pressure within two weeks in a very spectacular way you should look at what happened with the case rates in the uk you know the the world in data  in july after july 21st i think that  the measures were lifted there was a spectacular decrease so you cannot afford this when the infectious pressure is too high bring it down and then you restore the sterilizing capacity of the unvaccinated people thanks to their innate immunity and then we have a situation that we get back to a situation like at the beginning of the pandemic so people are underestimating the the the consequences of the high infectious pressure i tell you according to my humble opinion it's the single most critical problem that we have how do we get rid of this high infectious pressure that is causing you know that is indirectly leading to immune escape and that is eroding basically the innate immune system of the youngsters and and and the children so that they can not they cannot build  trained immunity.